Don't Force It: How to Get into College without Losing Yourself in the Process
For all the stressed-out parents trying to help their teenagers navigate the complicated world of college admissions.
Each episode offers insightful and in-depth conversations with admissions experts and professional educators with practical advice for getting through the process without losing sight of yourself, your kid, or your sanity.
From building a strong academic and extracurricular profile, developing the college list, managing standardized tests, to crafting the perfect essay, we've got you covered. Whether you're a seasoned high school parent or a first-timer, join us for candid conversations and expert guidance on making it to, through, and beyond college.
Don't Force It: How to Get into College without Losing Yourself in the Process
How Do I ask a Teacher for a College Recommendation?
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Today, we cover not only HOW do you ask, but whom should you ask...and what to do if you feel like you can't ask anyone!
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A lot of the time they have to be careful with their own capacity, right? They can't write a recommendation for every single kid in your class. I mean, maybe they could, they wouldn't be that great, you know? So they have to be judicious about who they say yes to. And then in some cases, it ends up being like first come, first serve. Hey folks, welcome back. Um, today we're talking about recommendations and specifically how to ask for one. But uh, we also are getting into how do you build relationships with teachers? How do you even know what's required from a school or what you can submit as a recommendation? How do you choose whom to ask for a recommendation? So this is a really juicy episode. Excited for you to take a listen. Today, the burning question is how do I ask a teacher for a recommendation letter for college? Oh, that's a great question. And I'm glad people are asking that because a lot of times people are like, I've seen students do this. So on the common application or usually whatever application platform you're using, you just put in the teacher's like contact information and the platform will send the request. And the worst thing a student can do is just do that without asking the teacher first. Students do that. I've seen it happen. I'm like, wow. Um so yes, you do need to ask the teacher, um, in most cases, two teachers for recommendations. Um, I get that, you know, it's the fall, and this is the question on people's mind. But uh, for people who are not applying this year, we really recommend you do this at the end of junior year. Uh, and ask your junior year teachers for the recommendation because they've known you for a whole year and those are you know, advanced classes, those uh classes, the grades for those classes will show up on your transcript, right? So there's like a little bit more context that uh colleges get to have around um if if those are the people that you can ask for recommendations, right? If you're asking a senior year teacher, I mean, right now some kids have been in school for a week or two. And if this is the first time you've ever had that teacher, what do they even really know about you?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So um, you know, even in the fall of senior year, you can ask your junior year teacher, but um, now they only have what, 11 weeks before early deadlines. Um, whereas if you had asked them earlier in the summer or at the end of the school year, they have a little more time, right? And also, this is a really unfair part of college. One of the many unfair parts of college applications is that um teachers are not paid for writing your recommendations. It's just like extra work that they end up taking on. And a lot of the time um they have to be careful with their own capacity, right? They can't write a recommendation for every single kid in your class. Um I mean, maybe they could, they wouldn't be that great, you know? Um, so they have to be judicious about who they say yes to. And then in some cases, it ends up being like first come, first serve. Um, now I'm not saying ask them in 10th grade. I'm not saying ask them early, right? Like we need to make sure we're asking the right teachers uh who you do have a relationship with. Um, but it's just kind of a piece of the puzzle you want to keep in mind. You want to give them time to write a great recommendation and make sure they still have, you know, space, capacity to write a recommendation for you. Right. Right. So that's a little bit about the timing. But to get to your actual question of how do you ask? Um, I always recommend doing it in person. Um, you know, at the end of the class period, you know, going up to the teacher's desk and and saying something like, you know, I'm thinking about my college applications and I think uh I would really love if you wrote me a recommendation. Can we set up a time to talk about it? Um they might have time right then, and then you can just talk about it then. But in case they don't, you give them this option to like come back during lunch or, you know, another period of time or set up a phone call or a Zoom call to talk to them about why you would like them to write your recommendation. And this is a bit of planning you should do ahead of time. Um, really think about why you want them to write your recommendation. And you should be asking teachers not just that you got a good grade in their class, but that they kind of know you as a student and as a person. That doesn't mean they have to be like best friend level, you know, mentor. Um, but they should know something about the kind of person you are. They should be able to speak to how you show up in the classroom, like how you treat other people, how you participate in class discussions, kind of how you are in the hallways, what you do in your free time, what you really care about, those sorts of things, right? Um, so oftentimes the best teachers to write a recommendation might be, you know, they've taught you in a class, but also maybe they're the advisor for a club that you're in. Um, you know, if if if that's an overlap that exists for you, like that that could be a great one. Um, you also want to be thinking about um what you want, would want them to say, right? You have no control over that, and you also have to waive your right to see their recommendations. The recommendation will go directly to the application platform, not through you. Okay. But by preparing what you think you would want them to say before you ask, that can be part of your request. And more oftentimes than not, it will somehow end up in the recommendation, right? And so I'll give you an example. If you can ask a teacher from your English class who um was the first person you learned anything about Shakespeare from. And you thought you hated English, you thought poetry was a waste of time, and then this teacher showed you something about Shakespeare's sonnets that you were like, oh, I'm not gonna be a poet, but I can appreciate this. I realize there's a lot more craft and skill that goes into poetry than I had assumed, and I see why people like it. And right, maybe they changed your mind about poetry on the whole. Um, if you can say that when you're asking this teacher, for example, Mr. Lindsay, who is my English teacher in high school, I am, you know, preparing my college applications. I would really love if you could write me a recommendation letter. And I thought you'd be uh the right person to ask because you know, I came into this class hating literature and poetry. But after that unit we did on Shakespeare, my mind has really changed. And I really owe that to you and the work that we did in this class. And I thought that would be a really great quality to showcase in my application. Right. And now Mr. Lindsay is like, you know what, you're right. I remember the paper you wrote about this thing. And, you know, um, and it's not that you're being manipulative, you're being honest, right? And teachers, when they have to, especially when they have to write multiple uh recommendations, you know, they're gonna start sounding the same. So if you can remind them of a specific interaction or a specific unit or whatever, um, that's helpful to them. Because then they're like, oh now I know what to write about. I know what story about. You know? Um, so that's kind of how you wanna how you wanna do it, right? Prepare what you hope they'll say, think of the stories, mention that when you ask. Um, most teachers nowadays will give you a questionnaire to fill out. Oh. So, and some of these are really long. I'm like, teachers are doing the most. Like I've seen them, they're like 20 questions long, and they want to know all of your extracurriculars and what colleges you're applying to, and you know, why do you think they would be a good recommender? And what are the things you learned in the class? And like it just forever and forever and forever. Um, I always tell students, like, they're not here to judge the quality of your writing. Like, that's not what this questionnaire is about. It still means you should hand in something that is somewhat polished, right? It shouldn't have typos, it should be something you thought about um as you responded to those questions. But that's another place where you can get those little tidbits across that you hope that they'll share with you or they'll share in their recommendation. Um, so you know, oftentimes the timeline is you ask, they're like, yes or no. Hopefully they say yes. Um, and then they'll be like, I'm gonna send you a questionnaire to fill out. You got to get it back to me by this date so I can write your recommendation, draft your responses, think about them a little bit more, and think about them really in the context of the other things you're saying to the college or the colleges, right? Because um, you know, your transcript is your transcript, your activities are your activities, though you can order them in a different way and describe them in certain ways. Um, that will create a certain impression. Um, you have the most control over what the essays say and the message that the essays are gonna give, right? You don't have much control over what the teachers are gonna say, but you get to choose the teachers, right? Right. So you're not gonna choose the teacher who you think hates you, right? They probably don't hate you, you might think they do, but like that's not the person you're gonna choose. Um, you're gonna choose a person that you feel like knows you and likes you and will write you a positive recommendation. So you have some control there, and then depending on how you ask and what you say in this questionnaire, you might also be able to make sure certain qualities come across. So if your personal statement is emphasizing, you know, your love of community and collaboration, you don't necessarily need a teacher to explain that again, but they might be able to provide some evidence that that's truly who you are, and that's how you show up in the classroom or your impact on the school has been about collaboration and building community.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, and uh one of our consultants, Holly, always says, you want these things to resonate, but not repeat.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Right. The admissions officer doesn't want to read the same story about you in a recommendation, in your personal statement, in a supplemental essay, you know, and then hear about it again in an interview, right? Um there's such limited real estate here. You want to make sure you're using it appropriately and not just repeating yourself. But at the same time, you are a whole person. And uh these things should not conflict, they should make sense together, right? And contribute to the picture that you're giving the college of who you are.
SPEAKER_01That makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna pause there. I just told you a lot of stuff, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_01Well, I do have some follow-up questions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um are there any cases where teachers will show the students their letters of recommendation before submitting them or even after, I guess?
SPEAKER_00I'm sure there are edge cases where that happens. I think it's very unlikely in the high school setting. I know when I was applying to grad school uh or applying for fellowships in grad school, that was more the case than not. In in some cases, they were like, Will you write it and then I'll edit what you're doing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But at the high school level, that's really uncommon. Um, mostly because of the sort of competitive uh cultures that come up around college admissions, right? Like they don't want students uh, I don't know, feeling left out or competing with each other, or uh I can just imagine like the scandals that would come out, like if somebody shared that recommendation with like the group text, you know. Yeah, look at what someone says that about me. And then like all the parents are gonna get upset, and the administration is gonna, it's just a whole mess, right? So I really don't think that's gonna happen. It, you know, there are some uh situations. This happened to me in high school. My French teacher was one of the people who wrote me a recommendation, and she um wrote me a very, very kind and positive recommendation, and she wanted to make sure she covered all the points I wanted her to cover. And so she didn't show me the recommendation, she was like, I wrote about this, this, and this. Is there anything that I'm missing?
SPEAKER_01I see.
SPEAKER_00And I was like, I mean, I was 17, I didn't know anything about college divisions. And I was like, I think you got it. If you're being honest, I think that's it. But I did show her my essay.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00So she knew what I was saying. Right. And so some of your some of your teachers may ask to see your essay or understand what colleges you're applying to. It really depends on how much time they have, right? Because I went to really small high school um and this French teacher probably had five recommendations to write. You know, um, there are other schools where teachers are writing 20 or 30 or God forbid, more than 80, you know, like I don't know how they do it. Teachers are amazing. Um, but some of them are spread really thin and they they do want to help students. So it's very hard to say no. Um, I should also mention that there are a lot of call uh high schools now that like have a really structured system for asking for recommendations. Like you got to tell your college counselor who you want to ask, and then the college counselor is actually gonna ask.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00And part of it is like a matching process that they're doing to make sure, you know, one teacher is not overloaded, that they're being fair to everybody and all of that. So they take it out of the student's hands, like the student can say these maybe they give them three names of teachers, and then the college counselor is arranging, you know, all of the all of the stuff sort of behind the scenes.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. I do remember we had a student last application season who had like had to work with an application system or something like that to request her letters of recommendation. Um, and I remember her being very upset when she wasn't paired with her two recommenders that she wanted. Um just kind of taking more of what you can control out of the student's hands.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, at the same time, that's an opportunity, I think, to to talk directly to those teachers. Once if you are assigned a recommender in that way, you can say, hey, can we talk? Uh I, you know, I'm excited, I'm excited that I get a recommendation for you, even if you're not, say you are. Um, and then like think deeply about what this person can share about you. Um, and I'll also say this everybody worries about it. They're like, oh, my teacher doesn't write very well.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_00What they're asking their physics teacher or something, maybe they're not a writer. I like colleges don't care. As long as this teacher can communicate about your character and how you are in the classroom, that's all that matters, right? Um, so it they're not judging the quality of a teacher's writing.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Now, do colleges care what subject the teacher that is recommending you taught you? You know, like it should you have a math and science and a humanities teacher be your two recommenders?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's really gonna depend on the student, their strengths, if they know their intended major or whatever. Um, there are some uh like engineering schools that will say, we want a recommendation from your math uh teacher, right? Or they'll they'll specify it has to be math or physics or whatever it is, right? Um, but most schools don't care. Um there is a middle group of schools that say from your core classes, so not some like random elective, right? Right. But like a math, science, English, foreign language, history, like a core kind of academic class, um, as opposed to like photography or something.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Um uh but some colleges don't even care about that. And you can also uh see that some colleges, you know, want two teacher recommendations, but they'll also take what they call an outside recommendation or an other recommender, which would be like the advisor of a club that's not teaching you. Um it doesn't have to be a club associated with school, it could be like, you know, the advisor for your church youth group that you work with closely to do whatever it is that you do, or um your like karate sensei, or you know, it can be somebody else, an adult who knows you in um in a way that can help fill out the picture of who you'll be on campus. Um not every college accepts those. And even when they do, you may not want to send one, right? If if your outside recommender is gonna say the same thing that your teacher recommendations say, then that's a waste of everybody's time. Right. And I'll also say this because I hear this question a lot. You know, I did this research with a professor and they said that they would write me a recommendation, or my uncle knows the senator from the state, then they said they would write me a recommendation. I'm like, if that person doesn't actually know you and isn't going to add a meaningful dimension to your application, their reputation or you know, celebrity does not matter. Right? It's people are not getting starstruck by the name of whoever is writing the recommendation, they are thinking about the content of that recommendation. You know, it might also be worthwhile talking about what does the recommendation form actually look like? Because I know when parents think about this, they think about like letters of reference for a job. Right. But that's not how these work. So on the common app, and you know, listeners can can Google uh Common App recommendation form, and you'll get to a help page on the Common App website that you can see a PDF of of these forms. I do recommend you look at them because they're very interesting. Um, it starts with, you know, some contact information, contextualizing information, how long have you known this student in what capacity? Um, but then there's this like grid section that they fill out where there are 13 or 14 qualities and the teacher is or the recommender is asked to rate the student based on like other students they've seen in their career. So like intellectual curiosity, disciplined habit habits, maturity, um something like respect for respect for teachers or something like that, like motivation, uh uh quality of writing. Like there, there are a bunch of different of these categories. And uh maybe I should just pull it up actually, so that I'm not um not just like pulling from my memory. Hold on, let me get to it.
SPEAKER_01Um I had no idea that they asked those sort of like uh scaling or ranking questions.
SPEAKER_00So right, this is the a PDF form. Usually students will do this on the in the platform itself digitally, right? So um, you know, the teacher details are what they're gonna have to put in, like subject area, if they're a high school teacher or a university instructor, and then here's the grid.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00Right. So academic achievements, intellectual process, promise, quality of writing. And then if they have no basis for rating it, there's that, but then it's like below average, average, above average, well above average, top 10%, top 5%, one of the top few encountered in my career.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00Right. And so not everybody is gonna have like all their check marks on the right hand side. I was able to get my application file from Harvard when you know they're the big Supreme Court case, they had to make a bunch of these files public. So then they made them public for students who had been admitted. You have to go through a process to get them. And my recommenders um had most in the top five and a couple in the top few in my career. I think that had a lot more to do with my school than me. Um, but you know, it's really great to see. But these qualities are not like academic achievement related. I mean, there's literally one that says academic achievement, but most of them are like character related. Discipline, habits, maturity, motivation, leadership, integrity, reaction to setbacks, concern for others, self-confidence, initiative, right? So this is where colleges are getting a lot of information about the student. Right. And then there's like, how long have you known them? What are the first words that come to mind? And then an evaluation of a a thousand words or less, which is like two pages essentially or less, um where that's like an open letter essentially that they can write. Right. Um, but there's a lot more that goes into it than than just writing that letter.
SPEAKER_01Right. And now I'm assuming. Teachers need to know if you're applying early action, early decision to these recommendation due.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So they know when this can needs to be sent.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that would be an important thing to communicate when you're asking, if you're applying early, what's the deadline? And you know, I encourage students to follow up with teachers in the form of a thank you note. Um, before you even know that the recommendation has been submitted. And you'll know from your Common App platform whether that's been submitted or not, or maybe your college counselor will tell you if they're you're using Naviance or some other system to get those recommendations in. But handwrite a thank you note. Thank you so much for writing my recommendation. I really appreciate it. You've been a meaningful mentor in my life, and you've done two things here. You've thanked them, which is important, but you've also put it back in their mind, oh yeah, I need to write a recommendation to that kid. They haven't done it yet. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's really smart. Wow. Are there any times when a letter of recommendation is optional?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's some schools that uh don't require them. Uh some that won't even take them, right? Like the University of California system does not use recommendations. Oh wow. Um and there are plenty of other schools that don't request them. Some some say they're optional. Um, so it's another kind of one of those uh requirements you need to track for each of your schools. Um, I have a lot of students coming in like sometime in the spring of junior year, being like, I've got five recommendations. And I'm like, why do you why have you asked for five? And they're like, Well, I just wanted as many as I could get. I'm like, well, you only need two. So how are you gonna choose between these two? And then they're like, Oh, so I have to tell a teacher I don't need it. And I'm like, Yeah, you might have to like go back to a teacher, you know, and and tell them that you don't need this. Um, so yeah, before you start asking, make sure number one, you know how many for which schools, and you know what you want them to say so that you can ask and give them the materials that you know they're looking for to help them write the best recommendation they can.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. This whole piece of the process is so fascinating.
SPEAKER_00I know. Um, I'll tell you, there have been teacher strikes that I've seen um where they go on strike from writing recommendations.
SPEAKER_01Why? Why?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, the teachers are striking for whatever reason. They're trying to negotiate something, but they realize, I mean, this is a thing they're not compensated for. Right. Um, and I thought I just thought it was a brilliant strategy because then the parents are like, no, no, no, we need recommendations for college. You need to give these teachers what they want. Yeah, right. So it's kind of a brilliant strategy. So I thought I'd mention that. I mean, teacher unions aren't looking to go on strike. Maybe that is your strategy. I will say though, it put the students in a very stressful situation. They're like, how do we explain? There are no recommendations, like, whatever. Um, this is uh back to a point that we talked about earlier about timing. I just remembered if your teachers are on strike, you know, your timing of when you can ask might be different. But um, I have um had a lot of students who will ask at the end of junior year, and then the teachers will be like, you need to ask me, you know, August 15th or whenever the school year starts again. Um, so you'll have to ask again. Um because again, in in the interest interest of like equity, teachers are trying to give everybody a chance to figure out what they need and ask kind of in the same window. So it's not so first come, first serve. Um the other thing that, oh shoot, I just had a really interesting story to tell you. Oh, well, while we're talking about equity, um, there have been studies done that show students at private schools tend to have longer recommendations that are much more complementary of the student than students at public schools, which is just completely unfair. But also I understand that some private schools may compensate their teachers for writing recommendations, or it is part of the expectation you will write so many expectations a year, and so it's part of their compensation. Um, they may provide better training for teachers to be able to write good recommendations. And just the fact of the matter is there are fewer students.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so then they can they can write a little bit more, right? Um, so that's sort of an unfair advantage. I'm not saying you need to move to a private school to get a better recommendation, but if you are at a public school, you may need to self-advocate a little bit more to help get you know the quality kind of recommendation that you want.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's really unfair. But it's I it all makes sense why it would be like that.
SPEAKER_00I know, but this is the problem with systems, they make sense, so we accept them. Yeah, you know, yeah, um, it's not fair, it's not fair, but we we can rationalize it so we don't change it, and uh we need to change this. And there are groups working to to change this, so you know the thing we didn't talk about is like if you feel like you don't have any teachers to ask, what do you do? Um you're gonna have to ask somebody. So like choose the lesser of the evils if if recommendations are are required. Um but if you uh if you're a senior and you're applying regular, you do have time to build some relationships. And if you're younger than a senior, especially if you're a junior right now, like be intentional. I'm not saying fake it and like suck up to a teacher just to get a good recommendation, but like, you know, think about your core qualities, your values, and how you demonstrate them at school because people will take notice. Um, whether it's in a classroom discussion or like an interaction in the hallway that a teacher might overhear or something in the lunchroom or whatever. Um, be the person you aspire to be. Like that's my best advice in life. Like if you know you want to be this way, just start being that way. It's not gonna be like a switch that you can flip, but you can start making small choices to be, you know, closer to that aspiration. Um, but you kind of have to know who you want to be before you can start doing that, right? So it starts with reflection. What are our values? And how do I, how would I demonstrate this thing, you know? And then just start finding opportunities to demonstrate those values. Um, and you can also like do a little bit of a charm offensive, right? If you think, if you're struggling in a class, actually, this is sometimes where the best recommendations come from from you're struggling in a class and you're determined to pull your grade up. Involve your teacher in the plan to pull your grade up. What can I do to write better papers or prepare better for these tests or, you know, whatever. These are the ideas that I have, right? Don't just wait for them to tell you, right? Be like, these are the things I'm thinking about that I'm aware of that I could do better, and I'm getting tutoring, or I'm reading this book to help me with this, or I'm using this online resource to kind of uh improve my understanding, or I'm working with an executive function coach so I don't forget what homework is due when, whatever, right? Um but uh put your teacher in a position of mentorship where they can actually help you wrap your head around what is going to make you successful in their classroom. They love that. That's proactive, right? And like learn from them, literally, like learn from them. It's not just about getting the best grade, it's about learning what you can. Um, and that story of, you know, they were struggling and then they really came to me for help and I saw them do the things that they said they were gonna do. That's a great story.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00Right. So it doesn't have to be, you know, a teacher you have a perfect grade in, but somebody who has seen you grow, I think is is really the the best guideline. Um, but that charm offensive can be, you know, taking these proactive steps to improve your grade. It could be uh maybe I'm just gonna use English class or maybe let's do history class. Like you're talking about some unit about, I don't know, the Vietnam War. And maybe you are, if you are genuinely interested in something around that, like if there's something that you found online about that, a YouTube video or uh an article or somebody recommended a book to you about it, share it with your teacher. Be like, hey, we just did that unit. I got really fascinated. I found this YouTube video. I thought you might want to see it. Right? It's little things like that, and definitely not every day, not even every week, but every once in a while, showing your teacher that what they're teaching you is having an impact on you is one of the best ways to build that relationship and to allow for that relationship to grow. Um, so even if it's you know, March of your junior year and you're like, oh no, I've got two months and I need to ask work, two months is plenty of time to let someone get to know you.
SPEAKER_01It really is.